Monday, February 13, 2006

Identity cards

29 Comments:

Blogger RW said...

Good point - here's another example:

"In 1994 genocide in Rwanda began, an ID card with the designation "Tutsi" spelled a death sentence at any roadblock. Along with the prior training of militas, stockpiling of weapons, direction of the mssacres by hate radio, the prior existence of ethnic ID cards was one of the most important factors facilitating the speed and magnitude of the 100 days of mass killing in Rwanda."

http://www.preventgenocide.org/edu/pastgenocides/rwanda/indangamuntu.htm

February 13, 2006 1:05 pm  
Blogger Mike said...

It's just wrong on so many levels - but my main criticism is there's no evidence it prevents anything - let alone terrorism.

Correct me if I'm wrong - weren't the 9/11 suspects in the US perfectly legally with correct ID papers.

Same with 7/7?

February 13, 2006 1:28 pm  
Blogger Rachel said...

Yep, Mike. It's a pointless waste of money with sinister implications. And no-=one has even come out with a sensible reason for having them in the first place.

ID cards would not have prevented September 11th or July 7th.

I am getting absolutely sick of a supposedly Labour Government behaving in this Civil -liberties - trashing histrionic way.

February 13, 2006 1:34 pm  
Blogger steve said...

Sorry, but, maybe I've missed something, but what do they think they will achieve? Maybe I'm being stupid but I can't think of a single good reason for I.D. cards, and I've never heard one from, well, anyone to be honest.

February 13, 2006 1:38 pm  
Blogger Mike said...

I - and I suspect many others - will have great pleasure in refusing an ID card..

Will it be illegal?

Will I be in prison for not having my papers?

Will my family be whispered about and feel uncomfortable in the community?

Might they be asked to move?

Maybe to a special place - that's policed?

Ye gods man I've just given myself the shivers.

February 13, 2006 3:16 pm  
Anonymous seth said...

yes rachel,that pointed yellow star...is a very scary reminders of horrors that occured in the past ...but i agree with u..national identity cards wont make us safer.

hope all is well in london..we had record snowfall in ny..26.9 inches broke all records...im on of 3 people who made it into work today. everyone else is digging out

cheers,seth :)

February 13, 2006 5:17 pm  
Blogger Dr. Deborah Serani said...

Wow, this is a powerful post and the comments are great too!

February 13, 2006 8:57 pm  
Blogger Spark said...

Hi there Rachel and Friends

Quite an image you've chosen: and apt

I'm posting because I got a call from Capital Radio today - they wanted me to speak about Gordon Brown's proposed London Memorial to the victims of 7/7, presumably because Pras and I've been doing Memorial Services in Whitehall on the 7th of each of the last two months, with a view to promoting a 7/7 Enquiry.
You can see more about this here: People In Common

I think they wanted me to give them some kind of dramatic opinion about whether or not it is a sufficient gesture, which of course I do not believe it is, but also [the real reason they called] they wanted to connect with a survivor an/or relative of victims for a more emotionally charged opinion.

After not returning their call [I am somewhat cynical about media calls, to say the least] Pras and I realised that if a small group of relatives and/or survivors were at some point able to get together and pursue the Enquiry agenda,it would probably gain quite good results.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know and also see what you thought about this idea. And also to tell you know that we're planning another 7/7 Memorial Enquiry Service on the evening of the 7th March. Would be great if you could put it in your diaries and maybe come along - it seems like a good tradition to begin don't you think

Otherwise the politicians will steal it for their own ends, as usual.

And the good news is that the police now appear to leave these things well alone: they didn't mess with our memorial service last week, just as they don't mess with the Sunday picnics. They try, but we have found that if we speak to them firmly and intelligently, and tell them it's our right to express ourselves freely and that we're quite capable of behaving responsibly, they seem to agree. So that's good news eh

Would be interested to know what you think about all this, and how you suppose we should proceed with the 7/7 Enquiry campaign.

Love,
Mark

February 14, 2006 12:35 am  
Blogger Rachel said...

Hi,

Capital called me, I did a quick phone interview saying, as usual, that I personally thought there should b a public enquiry, and I would prefer a public enquiry to a more permanent memorial.

As you will see from this blog if you type in 'public enquiry' and do a search you will find numerous posts from me, soem of which include other survivors viewpoints as well.

The BBC also spoke to families of victims and to survivors when there was no public enquiry and put their comments in a news story.

I have also given a quote to David Leppard in the Sunday Times twice in the last three weeks saying there ahould be a public enquiry in the context of recent revelations that M15 are 'out of leads' and 'tracked 2 of the 7/7 bombers'.

KCU is a non political group but memebers who feel political besides me have spoken out and said that they want a public enquiry.

You can sign the petition that I and other survivors have signed by clicking on the right in the blog links.

I will pass on the info about the 7/7 Memorial to the group.

February 14, 2006 7:49 am  
Blogger Spark said...

thanks for this Rachel

it seems to me that if we really want to push it we'll need to form a 7/7 Enquiry group that meets, face to face sometime

that way we can get a sense of what we're about - in my experience that's when the magic of collective action can begin to flow, from personal meetings & the friendships and connections that then form

would be good to know what you're feelings are on this..

but also: totally appreciate the non-political nature of KCU

but i feel very strongly that if we don't get to the bottom of the chasm between western foreign policy and overall attitude towards marginalised peoples [including, but nor limited to Muslims and the people of the Middle East] we will be attacked again, however authoritarian our legislation is back home

therefore it's a national security issue, but also a moral one in that we must all take responsibility for the safety and moral development of our culture and the government we've created

thanks again and keep up the good work

February 14, 2006 11:47 am  
Blogger Spark said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

February 14, 2006 11:47 am  
Blogger steve said...

Good job they went to war with Iraq to secure enough crude oil to turn into I.D. cards.
Also, probably why they were in such a rush before the price of oil by-products goes through the roof when they invade Iran.


NB-
(PVC-used to make all "credit card" style cards- is 2/3 derived from crude oil)

February 14, 2006 12:18 pm  
Blogger Mike said...

Its ok the cards are voluntary don't forget..

Oh - only if you volunteer never to leave the country..

It's the deviousness that scares me..

February 14, 2006 12:47 pm  
Blogger Spark said...

there's no way we'll accept the cards - England is the home of freedom from tyranny - it's the "gold standard" & i fully expect that this will become abundantly clear when they try and put it into practice

but our defence of civil rights [as they attempt to erode them] must surely spill over into an increase in our collective civil power and our willingness to use that power to make the government convenient to us, and not the other way round..

out of bad things can come great good, or, the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions!

February 14, 2006 1:13 pm  
Anonymous Longrider said...

Ah, yes, the good old "Jude" picture - it says so much in one simple, powerful image.

This country is rapidly becoming a place where I no longer want to live. Our bungling MPs have just voted for another cog in the machinery of a totalitarian state. Who, I wonder, will throw the switch?

February 14, 2006 1:19 pm  
Blogger Mike said...

> there's no way we'll accept the cards

Spark I wish I could share your optimism. I fear apathy will win out.


The good news we can count on utter incompetence.

I predict the cards scheme will be reviewed and potentially scrapped in five years time. (Child support agency ring any bells?)

February 14, 2006 2:17 pm  
Blogger fjl said...

Happy Valentine's day x

February 14, 2006 2:35 pm  
Blogger Holly Finch said...

why do we need one? why do we want one? why do they want us to have one? why do they want one?

it's just all a load of tactical political b***ocks

as mike said they'll probably f**k it up anyway

totally with you rach & spark....inquiry not memorial. will put 7th march in my diary
h

February 14, 2006 2:43 pm  
Anonymous Pete Bagnall said...

Great image - sums it all up perfectly. Hope you don't mind if I grab that and stick it on my website.

February 14, 2006 9:20 pm  
Blogger Eric said...

What a steaming pile of bollocks this post is.

The only totalitarians we face are people this scheme is designed to impede, not the government fighting them.

February 15, 2006 3:08 pm  
Blogger steve said...

Eric, I personally feel quite uncomfortable at the prospect of being forced to carry around ID stating everything about me, including my ethnic background.

There is absolutely no need for it, it will achieve nothing, unless you can point it out to me.

In fact go on, tell me how I.D. cards will "impede" any acts of terrorism or anything else remotely sinister?

February 15, 2006 3:45 pm  
Blogger Rachel said...

yes Eric, since the post consisted of no post at all, just an image, perhaps you can elaborate? On what you think it said and what your subsequent argument is?

Otherwise,you are rather like the drunk in the pub who shouts 'bollocks'' to every argument - and leaves that as their only contribution...

We await, with bated breath for your words of wisdom...

To kick off - how about explaining a) the benefits of an identity card and why it is necessarily different & better in terms of national safety and offers something different to the existing identification opportunities offered by a) a passport b) a credit card c) a mobile phone ( which tracks your signal) d) CCTV

February 15, 2006 4:02 pm  
Blogger Eric said...

OK Rachel,

Using the iconography of the Holocaust to discuss a measure like ID cards in a Liberal Democracy is not an argument, but a crass attempt to shock.

The plain fact is that if such a vicious totalitarian government obtained power, it could institute ID cards in any case.

In fact, the country the poster reminds us of, is Germany. They have an ID card. Is it realistic to say that postwar Germany has been sliding into totalitarianism since the end of the war, or rather the opposite?

None of your alternatives are the same as an ID card, three are optional and CCTV is only useful for picking up the pieces after the event.

It is not a lack of an ID card that keeps you free, but a willingness to defend liberal democracy that does so. We have had ID cards in previous wars, so what makes this war different?

February 16, 2006 12:19 am  
Blogger Rachel said...

We are not at war for starters.


You have not given a reason why we need an additional compulsory means of identification... can you?

The image is not making a point about modern day Germany - it is making a point about people being forced to carry compluslory ID - and the reasons why Governments want them to...

February 16, 2006 12:28 am  
Blogger Eric said...

...

Are those three dots meant to signify something?

Why don't you tell us what nefarious activity you think the government is up to. Are they planning a new holocaust as your poster suggests?

Your paranoia about government is only matched by your inability to accept Islamist terror at face value.

What evidence do you have that we are not at war?

BTW defining war at a conflict between two, or more, nation states is no longer a suitable definition given that we now have non-state actors with the ability to cause widespread destruction.

February 16, 2006 10:01 am  
Blogger Rachel said...

I am not saying the Government are Nazis. You are very literal-minded, aren't you?I am making a point with a widely disseminated image that labelling people and making them carry ID cards has an inglorious and frightening history and querying whether it is necessary. I have also asked you to explain to me why you think it IS necessary, and I note again that you have not responded.

I am not 'paranoid about Government' - again, why chuck insults around without any basis or justification? and I am more than aware of the effects of terrorism - that point just makes you look silly. What do you mean by my 'inability to accept Islamist terror at face value?' Again - insults - but no back up - explain, please - if you can...

Or are you just trolling?

February 16, 2006 10:19 am  
Blogger Rachel said...

We are not at war. I suggest you read a dictionary, Eric.

February 16, 2006 10:20 am  
Blogger steve said...

The government claims ID cards will alleviate problems of illegal immigration.

They wont. But if they did, how would it prevent us from terror attacks from British citizens like last year?

The only "war" we should be conducting is against the lack of ownership felt between most young people towards their own country.

February 16, 2006 10:43 am  
Blogger steve said...

I missed your top post Eric. You said Germany has ID cards, yes they do, many countries do, however most are non-compulsary and will not hold the personally invasive data the British one will.

"The German "Personalausweis". is a plastic ID card which contains, on the front side, name, date and place of birth, nationality, date of expiration, signature and photo.
On the back side are address, height, color of eyes, issuing authority and date of issue. Addresses are changed by putting a sticker on the old address."

This is typical of most EU ID cards, some include a fingerprint.

The UK one will have a biometric head scan, iris scan, and digital fingerprint all stored in a national database.

The last time I checked it was your actions which determined if you were a terrorist, not a scan of your iris or the size of your head!

February 16, 2006 11:26 am  

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